Leigh Sales is no stranger to interviewing Australia's most high-profile figures — be they celebrities, artists, sportspeople or politicians.
It's why she was tapped on the shoulder to mentor a cohort of autistic journalism students tasked with interviewing six big names (more on who later) for ABC iview's new program The Assembly.
But, as it turns out, it wasn't just the students who learned about how to get the best interview.
Sales shared with Backstory what drew her to the project and what new tricks she walked away with.
Why did you want to be part of the series?
"When the ABC approached me about doing this program, I watched an episode of the French version featuring President Emmanuel Macron. I found it compelling," she said.
The idea behind The Assembly originally came from France and has since been adapted and aired in England and Spain.
While each country has added its own flavour, the basic structure is that a group of autistic journalists get the chance to interview high-profile identities. No question is off-limits.
"After years of interviewing politicians and people who duck questions, I thought it was amazing to see this different take on interviewing that made it way harder for guests to spin or obfuscate their way out of things," Sales added.
"It had a level of authenticity and sincerity that I found very appealing."
Beyond showing a potentially different side to those being interviewed, Sales also has broader hopes for the show.
"I hope that perhaps the program debunks some myths about autism — falsehoods such as that people with autism don't feel emotion and don't have social skills," she said.
Did you learn anything from the students?
"I learned heaps from all of them … just about being spontaneous," she told ABC Radio Sydney.
"It's obvious, but in an interview the talent will always warm up to you if you're asking questions from a position of just natural curiosity and not having any kind of agenda.
"It's the best way to interview and it was such a great reminder of that."
Sales said the students' questions also showed how different approaches can cut through the "spin" some guests might have prepared.
"The thing that was interesting was that the way autistic people think means they ask some very creative and original questions, and also some very direct questions," she said.
"For example, one of my favourite questions of the series is when Dylan asks comedian Hamish Blake, 'How much money do you have in dollars and cents?'
"I'm sure journalists have wanted to ask that question but I'm not sure many would have the guts to ask so bluntly about such a generally taboo topic.
"And who wouldn't be interested to see how Hamish answers when put on the spot like that?"
Sales also made a mental note of a few questions by the students, including one from Silas who asked Blake, "Have you ever told a joke that you've regretted?"
Another "amazing question" that took her aback was when Savannah asked radio broadcaster Amanda Keller, "Do you love your husband?"
"On the surface, it seems like unusual phrasing, but actually it triggers enormous emotion in Amanda because her lovely husband, Harley, has Parkinson's Disease and Amanda has been reflecting a lot on how much she loves Harley and how important he has been in her life," Sales said.
"I thought all six of the guests showed a different side to themselves than in regular interviews, purely because the autistic students asked very different questions to neurotypical interviewers!"
What surprised you about making the show?
"How emotionally invested I got in the participants," she said.
"I was always really rooting for them to do well and wanting them to be happy and to feel more confident in themselves.
"In return, they made me feel that they had a lot of trust in me and they gave me a lot of warmth and affection."
That connection meant that during the interviews, instead of a laser focus on whether the interviewee was answering the question or not, her attention was elsewhere.
"Instead of being hypervigilant of what the guest was saying and thinking to myself where to take things, I was hypervigilant of the students and how they were going," Sales said.
"For example, I'd be thinking, 'Evie looks anxious, will she be OK to go next with her questions', or 'Dylan is very restless, should I go and fetch a fidget spinner [a device that helps autistic people self-regulate] and subtly hand it to him?'
"Or sometimes one of the students might summon me over and whisper that they didn't want to ask a question on their list, or they wanted some other kind of reassurance."
What was it like having the tables turned?
While The Assembly's official guest list is six people long — Sam Neill, Hamish Blake, Anthony Albanese, Delta Goodrem, Adam Goodes and Amanda Keller — as it turns out, there was a seventh interview.
As part of the series, the students undertook an Australian-first journalism course at Macquarie University and, a few weeks in, they were given an early taste of how their real interviews might go.
The tables were flipped and Sales put herself in the hot seat to get a grilling from the students.
"I generally much prefer to be the interviewer than the interviewee because I like to control the direction of the conversation," she said.
"It's intimidating to sit there and be questioned.
"The thing about this group though, is that they don't have any agendas.
"They're motivated by curiosity and they're very warm and non-threatening.
"To be honest, that's almost the most dangerous kind of interview you can get because you think it's safe to let your guard down!"
Stream all episodes of The Assembly on Tuesday August 20 on ABC iview or watch on ABC TV at 8pm.
